AVL's Reimagine Mobility Podcast

Transition ICE - EV: Strategy, Engineering & Production w/ Frank Abkenar

• AVL, North America

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Starting in manufacturing a person can see the flaws at the end that do not show up at the beginning with strategy or design. This allows teams to see the end game as a product and not what they put on paper. 

Frank discusses reorganizing teams for improved efficiency, influences in the transition from ICE to EV and various aspects of a vehicles production lifecycle. He also takes an important look at the future of alternative energy from the human aspect not merely a technology aspect. In this episode Frank and Stephan also discuss topics such as impact of manufacturing on strategy, the importance of hybrids in our decarbonization efforts and the future of ICE production. 

Frank Abkenar was the Global Director, Powertrain and Vehicle Thermal Systems at Ford Motor Company till December 2022.  In his last role at ford, he led all ICE powertrains, as well as ICE and BEV Vehicle Thermal Systems development and integration across Ford’s global engineering centers.

Mr. Abkenar has held several global roles in Product Development, Manufacturing, and Strategic Planning.  Frank has also held several leadership roles in Europe and Asia Pacific, which included launching several Powertrains in new manufacturing facilities in Brazil, India, and China.  In Asia Pacific, Frank was Director or Powertrain, leading the growth of Powertrain across the AP markets.

Mr. Abkenar graduated from Oakland University with a Master of Science in Mechanical Engineering.  He also earned a Master of Business Administration from the University of Michigan.


If you would like to be a guest on the show contact: namarketing@avl.com

Welcome everyone to the Reimagined Mobility Podcast series. I'm here with Frank Abkenar former Director of Powertrain engineering at Ford Motor Company. Frank, thanks for joining us. Thanks for taking the time today. You have a tremendous amount of experience and history in the traditional ICE space and yes, ICE is still not dead and will not be for many years to come. So great to have you on the show. Tell us a little bit about your background and then let's jump in and specifically focus on on ICEs. Besides all the other topics we cover on this podcast. Hi, Stephan. Thanks for inviting me. It is good to see you again. After what? As you said, I, I first of all, I retired from Ford the end of last year. My last assignment was global director of Powertrain in Powertrain ICE powertrain, and I spent 32 years at Ford. Tremendous opportunities from launching products to working in strategy and also stint in manufacturing. So try to see kind of a little bit of everything to get grounded there. Also had some opportunity to develop some new teams and multiple global location. I spent some time in the U.K. We were launching some of our global engines when I was there in basically Brazil and India, where we were trying to get some new products out and then also spent four years in China as global as as the director for Asia Pacific Powertrain, where we were trying to develop a team there from almost from scratch. So a tremendous kind of, you know, people that I worked with and great memories. It sounds like and certainly a blessing to be in all these different positions and all in different regions of the world. I'm sure that was a tremendous experience. So let's right away of when you said you worked in strategy, you worked in engineering and you worked in manufacturing. A question to me pops up that means is frank, from your perspective or in your opinion, looking back now, what is the most important out of those three functions when it comes to ICE Powertrain? Is it a strategy to figure out what to do? Clearly important. But is it more important than how you then engineer the product? And is that more important than how you ultimately manufacture it and how you ultimately then make money for Ford Motor Company? That's really good question. I started my career in product development and in especially when you're, you know, back then, not anymore, But back then, if you were engine, you kind of felt like everybody really worked for you. And and you think you're designing everything and basically, you know, they need to just make, you know, forget. Then I spent six years in manufacturing and one of the it was one of the highlights of my career, first of all. But the interesting part was every sensitive operation in my I rank, I worked in a couple of engine plants. I was in charge of production every sensitive operation. When I looked closely, it didn't have the most robust design to begin with. So so that was one. And the other part is when you're sitting in his strategy role and then product development, the two groups really set the tone for the rest of the, you know, enterprise. And one of those things that sometimes you don't, you know, keep a close eye on is complexity, complexity of design with complexity of variants. And when I went to the strategy team, I that was one of the things that was clear in my mind that I cannot add to complexity. I have to simplify as much as I can. So some of the latest products that we launched just before I left there, a couple of engines. If you go and look under the hood of any vehicle at Ford that we are launching with the one five or two liter engine, you're going to see a system that is clean, lacks clutter and much simpler just to look. And in my opinion that, you know, that cleanliness, that clean design, efficient design, it gives you better quality and also gives you better cost. But it's funny because I didn't start in manufacturing, start studying product and manufacture taught me a lesson and help me kind of think about it when I went to strategy. Interesting. So, Frank, would you then almost say that it would be the best if you were to start your career again? You would say, You know what, I want to start in manufacturing, then go to strategy and then engineering or how would you do it then? I think I think having exposure to manufacturing is really good because you have to you're basically dealing with the end game at that. Right. So you see, you end up seeing the flaws, which sometimes are invisible when you're doing a strategy or we're doing it, you know, a design, right. And I would say that and then the I would probably say you want to also understand the product before you go to strategy. Otherwise, if you don't understand the product and the manufacturing and you go to a strategy, you think about your end product as a paper, not that the product and you need to think about your end game as a product. True, True. Yeah, very good. I mean, I've been in situations myself, right, where you where you dealing with manufacturing, where you look at this thing inside of who the heck designed this thing. They never thought about the dang manufacturing. You know, it sounded like a great idea when you design it, but it was again, that's why we call it design for manufacture or read that that little step that it's sometimes so important. Let's define if I may, I want to add one more thing, if that's okay. Absolutely. Because the other thing that I think that helps if you're you for you, if you're working in whether manufacturing or whether working in this in product have experience in different parts. I you know, I worked a lot on engines and the rest of the power team. But one of my assignments when I came back from China was in the installation of the powertrain into the vehicle. But that usually comes a little late right in the process. And I saw opportunities there that the people who started this engines, if it was a clean sheet, they never thought about the next group that had to put it together into the vehicle. Now, one of the things that one of the things that I'm really proud of in 2019, when we did the last couple of engines that I did, I put the installation team right from day one with my engine team to work it to get what that exactly And then in 2019, I we actually kicked off a study using the MIT’s, systems engineering to look at the entire powertrain and the assignment I gave the three people that I put in that course was if you wanted to start a new powertrain organization, how would you do it from a clean sheet? And we ended up completely changing our organization in 2020 by including bringing all the installation and even thermal system into the engine group. So you develop the whole thing together. Now, that's a very good point. Very good point. Let's jump in to and talk a little bit about, let's say, alternative fuels. Okay. Everybody is on the on the path to green energy, green propulsion, green mobility, sustainable mobility, all great. I think sometimes we forget that we can also run an engine either very clean or truly clean. Right. And I think, again, synthetic fuels, ultimate fuels, whatever the name we want to call them, is. What is your perspective on that frame? Because you must have worked on these types of things or at least analyze these things on a maybe not just European basis or China base or U.S. space, but also on a global basis. Give me your perspective. Now, looking back to to what you saw then and what you see now and frankly, again, as we talk here about reimagining mobility, what could you see in the future, what you have when you left and what the state then was? Mm hmm. You know, as engineers, we need to sometimes step back and look at it from the human aspect of it, not from a technology aspect. We the ultimate goal is improving the climate. And to do that, our role as people in transportation is decarbonize. That's the goal. Okay. Now, there is no question that electrification is absolutely the right solution, especially for the light duty vehicles. But let's just start looking at some figures. Right. The rate of turnover to new vehicles is about 4 to 5% in developed countries. Right. Today, we in Europe, in North America or U.S. are average age of vehicles, about 12 years. So you can go do the math and figure out how many years it's going to take to turn over this whole thing. And then you got the rest of the world is you develop more similar and developing world is even worse shape than that. So we are going to have over 1 billion vehicles that are going to be with ICE on the road. So if you step back and the goal is decarbonization, you cannot just count on one. You address this to address the car part. And that is where alternative fuels and different solutions are important because you are not going to convince people to come and spend five or $6,000 on an older vehicle to change it to an electrified or reconfigure. It has to be a drop in solution. Okay. And I think that is where the E fuels or synthetic fuel can play a very important role. It's interesting that you're having this conversation. Yeah, I saw a clip just this morning that Stellantis just completed all their work on 24 engines and now I think what it says, that they are having a draft. They are declaring that they have a dropping solution for those. Right. Yeah. So, so the point is, yes, we need new vehicles come up with newer technologies, but we have to address the car part as well. If you really want to decarbonize transportation. And now the question is, is going to be drop in, obviously is going to be cost. effective, it is going to be transportable, but it also has to be you also has to be able to produce it with green energy. Or when I ask that question, exactly what about the infrastructure, so to speak? Exactly. So you need a fuel that is liquid that's transportable, that they can put it in the, you know, gas stations today. But the beauty of e-fuels are alternative fuels or synthetic fuel is that you can produce it in areas which you have abundant sources of renewable energy. SUN You know, solar or wind or whatever, and then transport to the areas that probably do not have that opportunity. Right now, that is the critical part to develop. And, you know, I'm sure you're aware Stephan, Porsche is doing some investment in that space and others are doing that. Stellantis announcement was very interesting. So the point is we have to think about the total system, not just what the four or 5% turnover that every year you produce on new vehicles. And that's where I see the alternative fuel to play the biggest role. All right. What what is your belief and let's just be frank, I believe Ford is one of the very few that still globally talks about the importance of hybrids. Right. We have Toyota that talks quite strongly about that, too. And I see they have a very strong, in my opinion, a very strong point, and I think so do you. What is your opinion of of hybrids and addressing exactly what we just talked about here? Right. Decarbonization, generally speaking. On the hybrids are going to have a place. I mean, there is no doubt about it. They'll probably be a transition for a very long time till the infrastructure in place and, you know, all the other challenges that we have to do. But you can't wait for all the other infrastructure issues. Everything be resolved and then turn a switch and go into all EVs. You have to have all these tools in your toolbox to address the climate. I was listening to your speak. You might have been also part of that, that I think somebody from Toyota was saying that you, for every battery that you can produce for EV you can produce eight batteries for PHEV right? What? You and I were. In the same room then. Yeah. That's right. Right. Just think about what kind of impact you can have. More like if you can have that kind of a volume there. The other thing that the you know, I think a lot we are still not taking good advantage to it is doing you know a good job at that is with a good hybrid system you can really simplify the engine itself and be able to offset some of the cost that comes with the extra widgets that you have to put for a hybrid. Right. So I think I am a believer that that plays a role. It may be a role that is out there for like five, ten years. But without it, you know, this is going to be a longer road to fix, to go 100%. Talk a little bit timelines. Again, you talk how long you've you've mentioned is a little bit let's let's talk about timelines and let's make it simple. I'm not going to ask you, when is this really not going to be around anymore because we're talking applicable issues and heavy duty outside of passenger offroad mining, agricultural, military, lots and lots. Let's forget that for a moment. Let's let's focus on passenger vehicle ride. What is what is Frank's view when ICE will be maybe add a from a production level, not from a in the world being used or in the U.S. or whatever. As you mentioned before, a billion cars, It's going to take a long time till that is all gone. Right. But let's talk about the major OEMs producing ICE. How much longer do you see that happening? Well, I'm looking at the same data that you see on is so the same projections. And last year in 22, we at the North America reached 6%. There was I saw some news that 25 or 26, more than 20, 25 countries now have reached a pretty significant threshold on the that. So definitely is accelerating and but if all the projections are correct, we are going to go to a point maybe to about, you know, some countries like, you know, in Europe are going to go faster. China's going too fast. It could go faster. North America is going to be, you know, all the projections are going to be somewhere between 45 and 50% by 2030. Let's take that on. The rest of it is going to have a few factors. The cost of ICE is going to go up with the regulation because you have to add more technology for emissions for, you know, CO2. That's a fact. Well, every new technology, the costs, the cost of EVs are going to come down. So by whenever you get to that 50% range, I think that might be the point that maybe you get acceleration towards seven or eight, but you also have to consider the social factor. I mean, we live in a country that for a number of reasons, and it's not just our country. I mean, you know, other places in the world. Polarization is becoming pretty big factor, right now. There is a sentiment out there among some part of the population that EVs is the government pushing a directive down their throat. You have to overcome that. And the way to overcome that is to make sure that they look at it as the right thing to do and financially smart thing to do. Ok? I was reading a book. It wasn't about cars. It was about the social, you know, about the situation in Louisiana. And it's a, you know, society that's very much, you know, believes in individualism, lack of government. And one of the people was suggesting it was, according in the book, is if you want to sell solar panels in Louisiana, don't tell them it’s for climate, tell them it's for cost. You don't have to pay for electricity. So I think we need to package this thing not just purely with incentives of government. It has to be have other elements to it to sell it. Yeah. Yeah. It becomes a marketing challenge again. Right. And I think again, as you said before, we oftentimes look at a solution, EVs, is that is is it the solution? But we forget to look at the system the same as you looked at at the beginning when it comes to an engine. Right. Look at the system as a whole, the whole ecosystem, and not just one or two pieces of it. So it's very good. So it didn't maybe in the last question for you, Frank. What do you see when. You when I ask yourself to reimagine mobility and again, we can we can deviate from ICE, we can deviate from e-fuels, whatever, just open to, you know, maybe let's focus on the propulsion aspect of any type of vehicle on the ground, in the air that's leaving the on the air again on the ground and in the air watercraft as well. What do you. What do you see when you ask yourself, how do I, Frank, reimagine mobility? What's that? What's the thoughts that come to mind? I think electrification has so much momentum that it's going to be primary. Okay? There's going to be like the other areas that you mentioned, heavy duty. Then they won't start thinking about that. They have to get in the game of cleaning the environment to okay and they will need different solutions. That is more appropriate for their, you know, system, their operating costs. There are, you know, a range that they need. They're all there, you know, challenges that we're all talking about. And I think we are going to see a multi, you know, and several different solutions in different areas that is going to actually be really good for our environment is going to help us achieve our goals of cleaner air. Okay. But it is not a cookie cutter approach. We have to look at the consumer, how they use the application. And as engineers, we have to come up with solutions that meets those requirements and that really that's what the engineers do. Yeah. Engineers come with solutions. I got one final. Actually, I was lying before. I wasn't. A final question. One more question. What's what's going to be the next car you're buying, Frank? Next car that I'm buying. Well, it's got to be a Ford or it's got to be Ford. Come on. When is it? Is it an electric? Is it a hybrid or you're sticking with one of those engines that you helped develop and make so good? I think I'm going to. Well, actually, I just picked up a vehicle with one of the last engine that, you know, we helped develop. And I love I definitely would look at a hybrid solution for sure. And when I get comfortable with the I, you know, that you know, with some of the range exciting and stuff, I have no issues moving to that application. Okay. So like I said, we got to clean up the system, the transportation system. I mean, that's our goal. But really, I, I honestly Stephan, I haven't given it much thought because just picked up the last. That's all good. That's perfect. Thank you so much, Frank. Always great talking to you and great insight. And again, the value of that which you brought here and that our viewers will definitely see with your history and experience. Again, manufacturing, engineering and strategy going from the end to the to the beginning sort of thing, invaluable. And hopefully a lot of young engineers and aspiring engineers listening here. Take a note of that and realize the importance of experience and experience in different fields. I think that's that's very critical. Thank you, Frank. Thank you very much. Thanks for the opportunity. I hope to see you soon. Thank you, Frank. Thanks for listening. To reimagine Mobility Podcast. If you like this episode, please subscribe and tell a friend.