AVL's Reimagine Mobility Podcast

Revolutionizing Mobility: The Intersection of Technology, Safety and Design w/ Mary Joyce

• AVL, North America

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In this episode, we delve into the transformative impacts of electrification and connectivity in the automotive industry, exploring how these advancements reshape vehicle design, functionality, and safety standards. Mary Joyce, a seasoned industry expert with a rich background in automotive technology and leadership at UL Solutions, shares her insights on the evolving role of regulatory bodies in ensuring the safety and reliability of emerging automotive technologies. We also discuss the challenges and future directions of testing and certifying advanced automotive systems, the global regulatory landscape, and the ongoing debate over centralized computing in vehicles. Joyce's perspectives illuminate the potential future of electric vehicles and the automotive industry's path toward safer, more connected, and sustainable mobility solutions.

Mary Joyce
2023: Automotive Hall of Fame Industry Influencer Awardee
2022: Board Member:  California Mobility Center
2021: Advisory Board Member: Enertech Capital
2019 - present: Global Vice President & General Manager Critical Systems and Mobility:  UL Solutions
2017: Vice President North American operations; Transportation Division, SGS

21 yrs: OEM experience
8 yrs: Automotive supplier experience
13 yrs: Business ownership: Software Application development
14 US patents: Alternate propulsion, software, electronics
Walter P. Chrysler awardee:  Technology advances in the area of alternate propulsion

MBA: International business and Analytics
MS: Electrical Engineering
BS:  Computer Electrical Engineering

Personal
Detroit native, living near Tampa, Florida currently.
4 children; 4th grandchild arriving in a few weeks!

A global leader in applied safety science, UL Solutions transforms safety, security, and sustainability challenges into opportunities for customers in more than 100 countries. UL Solutions delivers testing, inspection and certification services, together with software products and advisory offerings, that support our customers’ product innovation and business growth.

If you would like to be a guest on the show contact: namarketing@avl.com

Welcome to the AVL Reimagine Mobility Podcast series. I'm excited to speak today with Mary Joyce. Mary is at UL and Mary, before we jump in and re-imagine mobility here with what you guys are doing and with your expertise and the different places, you have oversight on, give us a little bit of background where you're coming from, your experience, what should be, what's your responsibility as well. And then after that short intro, it's jump into things. Okay. Well, thank you very much, Stephan, for having me on this series. I feel very honored. My background is primarily automotive, so I worked at Chrysler when it was actually Chrysler and then then Daimler-Chrysler, and then I actually worked for them when they were Fiat Chrysler. Also about a decade and a half of business ownership up in the the cloud area where applications and and then I went into tech and spent some time at SGS and then was recruited by their competitor there you all solutions and I run the what we call the Mobility and Critical Systems Division of UL Solutions. Ok, Very good. So as we see all these activities going on in the market with the megatrends, I would say electrification rate broadly spoken, the other one is connectivity and that may be the third one, certainly not a maybe, but a very big one as well as ADAS right? Out of all those areas, where do you guys see the biggest demand for the solutions that you would UL provide? And why is step currently? Is it regulatory driven? Is it product differentiation driven from your customers? Is it regional unique, if given some probably quite a bit of a larger overview on some of those dynamics in the market, Right. Yes. So it's it's kind of an interesting situation, especially here where we're in the United States. It's a self-certified nation. So UL, had historically been almost the guard to the United States. Right. So you have to get UL stamp if you wanted to sell the your products in the United States anything from like jackets to to our Christmas lights. Right. You know he had to get EU while still but in automotive that was different there isn't that demand driver in the United States now of course there's type approval on regulations in in Europe in the rest of the world and in China special regulations also but you are has historically always been somewhat of a physical testing company like the rest of tick. So Tick stands for testing, inspection and certification. But things are changing and you mentioned some of the big drivers on the that change. Things are getting more complex and in order to relief we lease safe products, these complex new safe products. And there is a lot more focus on functional safety as well as physical safety. So I like to say that no, no longer can you just put it on fire, throw it against the wall, shake it, bake it, smash it and stick a nail on it. You now have to do all different types of functional testing because that's where a lot of the errors that could could be fatal actually happen. So we work with the customers both on the left side of the V where we help them with things like cybersecurity and functional safety process excellence on moving toward towards more agile methodologies. And we also work with them on the right side of the V because we do have that X 101 hundred and some years of expertise in in fire safety, electrical safety, battery safety and so forth. So it's almost a typical tick is always on the right side of the V, but we are moving left. I think that's actually a saying, no moving left. All right. That sounds good. So when you when you look at what you again, you highlighted safety and it's a common theme through throughout the mobility space, not just passenger vehicles, but anything from on the ground to the air and certainly also going to space. When you look at NASCAR, when you look at some of the things that Space X is doing, etc., what is the one thing based on your years of experience in the space that you now looking back now that you're a UL, and you're looking back that you would say, Man, I wish we would have done this better, or man, we should have done this better because it's a bigger step now than it could otherwise be. Had we changed X, Y, and Z to really get to to the mindset, to the culture of where we're now needing to be, not necessarily taking into account, again, type approvals or self regulations or very specific tasks, etc.. Just generally speaking, what you see there when we look back? Well, I can say from my personal experience, I, I wish that I would have put more emphasis in process during development. So I'll outline I'll date myself here real quick. So when I actually started at Chrysler, we were writing in assembly code on a HC6811 chip. And so there wasn't a lot of memory on that chip. So it was a very, very different world. You didn't need processes. I mean, you should have had them, but you didn't absolutely need them. And the whole if you could start those processes back then when things were simple and then continue to grow them, then I think you have a lot more success now as things get complex. So that is where we see larger companies that have more legacy types of products and modules and systems on. They are really struggling to get those processes up to speed to become compliant with a space with functional safety, with 21434 cybersecurity. And so that that is probably any company starting. Make sure you get processes right. Okay. And if we if we take this now right and I think you alluded to it already processes the big thing but if we take that mindset now and saying if you could go out and you become the ambassador of safety or what the automotive industry again globally has to do to get vehicles allowed to be on the road, what would you go out and and yeah, be this ambassador of all to the all to the OEMs or to all the suppliers what what would you preach. Would it be a it's processes or are there other things that you are. Do you guys already see that in the future? We'll have to address that today might be, you know, minuscule kind of what you said, you know, assembly code, barely any memory. I remember those days as well. And now we're today. So what do you foresee going forward? I mean, AI got to be one of those things that everybody is scratching are at insane underworld. I'm going to test that when it's in more vehicles and not just in maybe in voice recognition or a few other things that really don't impact my quote unquote, safety. But share a little bit. What do you see again, looking out five, maybe even ten years, you're year to see more. I mean, we're already seeing a lot of mergers and acquisitions. We're to see more of of that occurring in the future. The complexity that we are embarking on now is is not akin to anything we've ever done in the travel. And and so we are seeing companies understand that, realize it and react to it by developing partnerships, developing, you know, doing acquisitions, doing mergers, coming together. And that kind of lines up with the the change in in how how we own our software. Right. So we're seeing more and more like open source kernels or open source modules using automotive. That was unheard of in in in in my development days. And there's going to be more collaboration through open source in through actual physical type of partnerships and again, going back, what about I mean, everybody's talking about I think right now AI would say it's fair to say we're already surrounded by we just don't necessarily realize it. But what is this potential of AI right. Is is sort of the potential that an Excel spreadsheet has. I maybe use 5% of the capabilities, but I know those 95% or that I don't even know what the thing can do for me other than if somebody shows me. I'm like, Wow, I didn't know. I think it's similar with AI. Well, Mary where’s AI taking us when we talk about mobility, not not necessarily cloud, where we already use A.I. for data analytics, maybe not necessarily an infotainment system that helps recognize voice or recognize what we're trying to say, even if we're not clearly speaking it. I'm talking outside. I'm talking about range calculations. I'm talking about how it's combined with level four and level five autonomy. Where do you guys see this going and the additional layer of complexity that will add the test, something that essentially evolves so consistent basis. So what are you tested against? Right. So that's going to be interesting. It's going to be it's a long ways stuff in away from allowing AI in any type of environment that gets updated on a regular basis that is safety critical. So it's functional safety 26266 to level five or level four, we're going to see them for things like your infotainment center, your back seat, entertainment. Those updates are going to be happening out a lot sooner. We will see used in development, though, it's just probably going to be frozen at type approval type point in time and then have to go through additional type of proofs if you do update that safety critical and eventually we're going to get there. And I and I think the sky is the limit with AI, I, I like to tell people that it almost feels like the year 2000 when the Internet was coming out and there's just the opportunities at that time. That's when I saw it my business the opportunities was that at that time, after the dot com crash building back up were just tremendous, just absolutely tremendous. And I think we're in that space with A.I.. We do a lot of work with companies that are using AI in the development of their advanced driver assistance systems, whether that be three or four. And it's, you know, the way we've approached it is through process, of course. I mean, that's super important. But also statistical analysis. We work with companies on an analysis of that, that code and how it was developed and what to go right and what could go wrong. UL 4600 is on the standard for safety of autonomous products and that has a lot of information on air uses in in these areas. And then how the vertical well the validation verification will be done on that. And we saw such an interesting time in history, I think, right now this will be the this is what will define the early 2020s. Right. Interesting gut. So you talk about safety, you talk about the validation of it, the type of pools, again, different countries, whatnot. Give us a little bit of an idea of worth the U.S. going to go when it comes to this, Because you kind of mentioned China has, I would say, fairly strict, as far as I know, relatively speaking rules on what you have to do. Europe has the system of type approval, which, again, relative to the U.S. is strict and and sometimes makes it interesting for us to tell U.S. OEMs what they want to export what you really have to do and meet in Europe. Right. Where do you see the u.s. go on with all the things you see and with years now that UL, where is the u.s. going to be in five years? Are we still somewhat where we are today? We sort of taken an approach of you know, in my experience is like we take a little bit what Europe does, but we water it down because we don't want to mandate. We still want to be self regulated. All we realizing, as you just said, we've I it's going to get so complex. We need to sort of bring it back and be more let's call it more aggressive. We're more involved as a regulatory body. The U.S. for such things as the mobility space where safety and lives are at stake. But what do you see? You're the experts that I would be interested to know what you see over the next five, maybe even ten years happening there. So so innovation is always up front and then it's followed by the standards and then it's followed by the regulations. And so we are seeing a world where regulations are very much lagging innovation, as we've always in in the automotive industry. But in five in in, there is going to be a lot more conversations about moving away from self-certification, but I don't think it's going to happen. There will be tons of conversations in five years. We'll still be a self-certified nation and will be a little bit closer to having regulations. Another So our visa regulations, even though they are self-certified, they are mandatory, You can just test to them, you're yourself. So we're we're seeing a ton of work by the group in the government to create new EFM visas codes for some of the more advanced features and so will be in five years will just be further along. We won't be there though. Interesting. And staying with that theme for a moment, which country, if you could share, has the most stringent regulations as it relates to Let's pick one. EV vehicles or ADAS you pick whatever. I'd just be interested to see which one has the most stringent. And then the opposite is which one has the most. Can we call it lenient? I think it's probably appropriate. You go. I think I think almost every would agree that Germany in Europe have to have the most stringent regulations in in in mandates about the whole ecosystem to right you know, about energy, about your advanced driver assist systems in general. They're the most stringent. They're even more way more stringent than us on getting driver's license. So they they will be they will be cautious on, you know, China and and U.S. are running fast and furious. You know, Japan and South Korea, They'll they'll they'll be a little bit less strict than than Germany, but still stay in that kind of mindset. But the U.S. and China. Yes, in furious China will make some of their own regulations to when when you look at technology's mobility, we're staying with mobility. I know UL. There's a lot of auto things in other industries, but let's stay mobility that you're reading. What's the most difficult thing for you guys to test or to certify? Is it giving example Is is it is it battery? And you know and they'll penetration that when they say now this has been tested Neil permutation will not do anything is it is it again more and more advanced. ADAS level two plus three maybe four features that depend so oftentimes on on a use case or a certain environment the vehicle is in, is it infotainment systems that are supposed to do certain things that are sometimes complex suite and figure out what they're supposed to do, maybe interest for you? What is the most challenging thing device feature function you guys have to test right now. So I think if I, I think if you asked the average person, they would say the battery right. Because the large format lithium ion batteries they can be very dangerous in and you you see concealing in the news a tick a tick laboratory goes up in flames. You know there this it's expensive to get all the safety in there and it's it's a difficult testing but I disagree I think the system of system is the most difficult to test. And so the largest is of the area that I have to hire the smartest people is in the areas of these advanced driver assist systems where these newer technologies, because you're bringing in a car and you're bringing, you know, all the pieces of car you it's a system of systems that have to all work together. And so I think that's the most difficult and I'll use one example I have on a typical advanced driver assist. I drive a Honda CRV and you know, I can I can get be the LIDAR to detect if I stop too fast and the front end goes down, you'll start seeing brake, you know, turn on my emergency braking system, which I'm already braking. But, but it it's it's it's those things that that make the system of systems. Yes the software can be so hard to to verify and and and validate and test you but when you put it all together it can be something that's totally unrelated. That's a different part of the vehicle that is making a difference. Suspension is is is kind of the example I used. So really I think what you're saying is instead of when companies come to you and say, certify is radar or certified, this ADAS, you have to say system or functionality. You're faced with the challenge studying that in a vacuum. This thing may work properly 99.9% of the time. But now you put it into this evermore complex system called vehicle passenger or car, for example, It becomes so much more challenging because all the interaction and again, to system of systems I think that's what you're saying. Yeah, absolutely. That's that. And the complexity is only becoming greater, right? We're losing some complexity because when we get mature as an industry, the the concept of electric propulsion makes the car simpler. I mean, just by pure amount of parts and components that are used. So we are lowering we're not at the technical level. We were with ice engines yet, but we're we're lowering the complexity in in the propulsion area where we are significantly increasing complexity with the connectivity in and the advanced driver assistance systems. Okay. Okay. So and maybe two more questions. One, so let's take that a step further then. Right? Some people have talked about, which I still frankly struggle a little bit with, truly understands how this would work out again, for axillary functions. When they talk about, you know, we're we're going to go to central compute platforms and a lot of the calculations that we need to drive this. Are we going to throw up in the cloud? I still have not experienced in this country cell connectivity that's really without any trouble. So I don't know how far out that is. But now we're talking a system, a system or systems maybe. Is this what we're sort of looking forward to, in your mind? And are you guys preparing yourself on how you would certify this or is it is too far fetched? It's interesting because it's it's almost a debate going on. So there is so much that benefit and need for centralized computers. You know, the the the data in the in the execution is just mind boggling larger than it used to be. But then there's this train of thought, man, there's one problem and one area of that, and that is a really, really expensive warranty item. And so there's a lot of debate going on. Is it, you know, is it better to just replace, you know, a domain controller or just a LIDAR or is it better to have it all sent centralized? So and I think that debates can go on for a while. And I think only the school of hard knocks is going to tell us what is the eventual outcome in in in the future. So, yes, we get a lot of discussions. We're helping clients a lot with the Hadassah Adaptive Virus, our centralized computing that that that type of stuff. Interesting. Interesting. Okay. And the last question you mentioned, right now you're driving a Honda. But the final question here always is what's going to be the next car you buy and why? So this and that in itself? I mean, you're you're probably watching all the news now with pullbacks on the EVs and concerns about cost. And so forth. Lots of I'd say in the last month, it it almost sounds like media is calling an EV bubble. Right. Which is not. It's just going to grow slower for two car families. I think one person will buy an E. I agree with you, especially in this country. I agree with you. Yes, yes, yes, I do. I do get it. Until range anxiety is fixed, we're not going to get And yes, my next car will be an easy you know, it's got really well AP and Dan and I need. No, you go. All right. That sounds good. Okay. Thank you, Mary. Very. I mean, it's interesting to see what you guys are doing and certainly interesting to see the challenges you guys are faced with. And I think your your comment about the system of systems in the most challenging thing is very much true. And it's only going to get one ever more complex, worse, whatever the right adjective here is, but it also get more excited us as you are. We shared which the same thing. So along with your perspective, I appreciate it. Thank you so much for having me, Stefan.